Sam Ovens Interview with Leveling Up

About This Interview

Date: October 2019

Interviewer: Eric Siu from LevelingUp

Original Source:


Sam Ovens: (00:00):

Through, I want to show other people how they can use consulting as a vehicle to either quit their job, live wherever they want, or fund their business on the side, anything like that.

Host: (00:13):

Do you want to impact the world and still turn a profit? Then you’re in the right place. Welcome to growth everywhere. This is the show where you’ll find real conversations with real entrepreneurs. They’ll share everything from their biggest struggle to the exact strategies they use on a daily basis. So if you’re ready for a value packed interview, listen on. Here’s your host, Eric Sue

Eric Siu: (00:41):

Before we jump into today’s interview, If you guys could leave a review and a rating and also subscribe as well, that would be a huge help to the podcast. So if you actually enjoy the content and you’d like to hear more of it, please support us by leaving us a review and subscribe to the podcast as well. Thanks so much. Okay, everyone today we have Sam Ovens who is the CEO and founder of, which helps people start and grow wildly profitable consulting businesses and live lives of freedom. So I’ve been waiting to do this interview for quite some time. Sam, welcome to the show. Good to be here. So Sam, why don’t you give us a little background on kind of who you are and what you do over there at right now?

Sam Ovens: (01:22):

Sure. So how I got my start in entrepreneurship was I was working a corporate job and then I hated it. So I quit and decided to start my own business and failed with that. And then I got into software like SAAS and I needed to find money to fund my SAAS business. And so I learned basically how to get customers for my SAAS business. And I found that that was quite a valuable skill that all businesses wanted. So I started consulting businesses on how to get customers and not just telling them how to do it, but actually doing it for them too, like setting up the landing pages, the ads and all of that. And so I did that on the side, like I was a digital marketing consultant to local businesses and I generated money that way. Then I would use that money to fund my SAAS business.

Sam Ovens: (02:09):

And it was a really powerful tool that I’ve used throughout my life as an entrepreneur so far, like it helped me generate money for myself personally, it helped me generate money for my SAAS business, and it also taught me a lot because you get to see so many different problems and you get to solve them. What I wanted to do with is show people how they can start their own consulting businesses in anything. So it was a very helpful tool for me and it changed my life. So through, I want to show other people how they can use consulting as a vehicle to either quit their job, live wherever they want or fund their business on the side or anything like that.

Eric Siu: (02:52):

Great. And so when you started, backing up a second. right now, how does it work? How exactly do you help people start and grow these businesses and how do you make money?

Sam Ovens: (03:05):

Sure. So how we help people start consulting businesses is we just teach them, we have to train them. Like we have to tell them exactly that you need to pick a niche and how to pick a niche. So it should be something that you’re interested in, well how do you find out what you’re interested in? We have to really do a lot of work with people because a lot of people that are joining are not even sure if they want to start a business and we’ve got a lot of things to go through until they’ve got a successful business. And so we help them pick a niche, then we help them find a market problem, and one of the key things we do is help people find problems because then their business should just be providing the solution. I think a lot of entrepreneurs, they go out looking for ideas.

*Try a Consulting Accelerator Free Trial Here

Sam Ovens: (03:50):

We just go looking for problems and the inverse of the problem is the solution, which is their idea. Then once we’ve found that we validate it, we price it and then we help them acquire the skills so that they can provide the solution. Then we help them get their first few clients, and help them scale up from there. That’s basically what we help them do and we do it through an online course. So it’s a portal which they log into and there’s a bunch of videos and action items and steps they have to go through. We also provide a community where they can network with other users and we charge money for the courses and that’s how we make our money. Perfect. And then how much is the course typically? So our beginner’s course for people who want to start a consulting business, that’s called consulting accelerator and that’s $2,000. Great.

Eric Siu: (04:38):

So I do a podcast with Neil Patel and we talk about your funnel a lot. I’ve often looked at your funnel as well and it’s apparent that a lot of people that are doing these types of let’s say agency or consulting courses are trying to duplicate what Sam Ovens is doing. So can you give us an idea in terms of revenues, how much success you’ve actually seen in like a 12 month period?

Sam Ovens: (05:00):

Sure. Well, this year we should do like 30 to 34 million somewhere in there. Wow.

Eric Siu: (05:07):

Okay. Yeah. The last time, the last time Neil and I talked about this, we actually talked about you on the podcast too, you were around like 20 to 25 million or so. So what do you think, obviously we don’t want you to give away all your secrets right but what do you think has been the impetus for so much growth? Because people with this course stuff there’s a lot of these people out there, A what makes you different, and B what’s the driver?

Sam Ovens: (05:30):

Sure. Well, I can give away my secret, which is just focus and relentless execution. That’s actually what it is. I mean, I just work harder at it and for longer and more consistently, over a longer period of time with greater intensity and focus, it’s just work. So I probably clock more hours over a longer period of time than the average person, like focusing on this thing. But also I really lock in on one or two key things to do, and I just ignore everything else. So I’m not trying to be good at everything. I’m actually not good at most stuff and just very good at a few things.

Eric Siu: (06:13):

Great. So you actually have a couple of videos on YouTube that I recommend people check out, you have this one video on the Sam Ovens war map. And I think you have another one, you basically have these Excel templates out there, which are amazingly free for everyone to download. Can you kind of speak to that war map? Because I think that’s one of the things that helps you focus quite a bit. I’m not even sure if you still use it, but if you do, do you want to speak to it?

Sam Ovens: (06:34):

Sure. Yeah. I still use it. It’s just a calendar really, but it’s a bird’s eye view calendar, you’re looking at the month from a bird’s eye view. And you’re just plotting in there the key things that you need to do to try and achieve your goals. So what I’m always trying to do is it all start with the goal first, I think, what am I trying to achieve? And I get that very clear and I define that. And then once I know what my goal is, I think well what actions are going to be the most powerful at achieving this goal? And I define those actions and then I just plot those actions in my calendar. So if I want to achieve this, these are the things that are most likely to get me to achieve it so then I should do these things and then I plot them in my calendar. Then I just do my best to never forget that and just get those things done and ignore all the other noise that pops up around those things.

Eric Siu: (07:35):

Got it. When I looked at it before and I’ve even had people on my team look at it too. You know, what they say is it’s very useful because it focuses you maybe over a 30 day period on one or two things. It keeps you laser targeted versus trying to do 30 or 40 different things at once and feeling like you really didn’t get anywhere. So I think that’s really helpful, we’ll drop that in the show notes. Also at the same time, you have this other piece about how you come up with ideas and how you prioritize those ideas, which is your RICE framework, I don’t know if you call it that, but how does that work?

Sam Ovens: (08:13):

Sure. That’s just like a prioritization system because let’s say that you want to achieve this goal and let’s say this goal is I don’t know I’ll make this up, a million dollars in revenue for the year. We have to reverse engineer that back, that’s roughly a hundred grand a month and then well how are we going to achieve that? What product are we selling? How much does that cost? How many units of that product do we have to sell at that price to make a hundred grand a month? And then what funnel are we going to use to do that? And then how much traffic do we need to come through there for it to do all of these different things. And so we can just reverse engineer all the way back to these things that must happen.

Sam Ovens: (08:53):

And then what we need to do is get a list of things that we need to do in order to make this happen. Let’s say it’s build a funnel, run some ads, run some conversion rate optimization. So we’ve got a list of things that we need to do, but then how do we know which one to work on first? So that’s why we use that RICE project scoring tool. All it’s doing is it’s just looking at the impact of each thing cause not all things have equal impact. It’s also looking at how long it will take to execute it in human hours and also the probability of it actually achieving that thing. Like, are we really certain or are we a bit uncertain? So all it’s doing is it’s trying to prioritize the actions that are going to create the most impact towards the goal that we have the most certainty in and that requires the least number of hours.

Eric Siu: (09:53):

Okay and the acronyms, what do they each stand for? The letters?

Sam Ovens: (09:57):

I think it stands for reach, impact, certainty and execution. Okay,

Eric Siu: (10:05):

Okay great. The way I’ve looked at yours, typically with testing, you know, you have the ICE model, right. You’ve added a R to yours and then ICE is typically kind of what you said, and it’s scored on a very simple model. So Sam, basically, if you look at his YouTube video, just Google San Oven’s RICE and you’ll find it, it is more complicated, but at the same time, it is more targeted, right? It’s much more kind of succinct because the ICE model, without getting too complicated here, is only based on a score from three to 30. And sometimes a lot of stuff can be like 28, 28, 28 and you still don’t know if it’s the right thing to do. So, trying to use Sam’s model might help free up your mind, even though it’s a little more complex to get going. So I wanted to touch upon those two because I found they were really interesting things. Now going back to consulting, you’ve got this thing you’re doing 30 to 35 million a year. I do know one of the things you use for acquisition too, is kind of licensing your training program. So if you are doing that, what does that look like? Tai Lopez for example.

Sam Ovens: (11:08):

What do you mean by Tai Lopez?

Eric Siu: (11:11):

You did a deal with Tai Lopez where he helped promote you before, right? So is that how you license your training programs?

*Sam Ovens and Tai Lopez Interview

Sam Ovens: (11:20):

No. So when I say licensing, that’s typically when we sell our product. We’re just selling a user license to the product. Okay. We’re not selling them the whole thing, kind of like when you use iOS on your iPhone, it’s just a license. You don’t own the, the program. So that’s what I mean by licensing it. Then in terms of Tai, he helped us grow a lot at one point. We did that through like an affiliate deal. We paid him 45% for every dollar in revenue he generated. The reason why it was quite a powerful partnership at that stage was because I’m introverted. I don’t go out on social media and make much noise and I don’t really post content that much or go out and make it make a big scene.

Sam Ovens: (12:16):

I spend most of my time just looking at numbers and tweaking things and optimizing things, which means that I had a really good product and a really good conversion rates, a good funnel and all of that. But I didn’t have much volume and awareness of people knowing about my thing. However, Tai is like the inverse of that. So, he had mass awareness and a lot of traffic and a lot of influence, but he didn’t really have a great product or a funnel that had great conversions. So the two paired quite well together. He could send a lot of traffic into my funnel and my program and it converted really well. So he helped us grow quite a lot during a particular stage.

Eric Siu: (13:00):

Got it, that’s great. So approximately what percent of your business do you think is from affiliates versus just purely you running ads, for example?

Sam Ovens: (13:10):

Yeah. Well, at this point right now, it’s just one hundred percent our own channels because affiliates have kind of died down. At the point where we were going very hard with Tai, I mean, Tai was driving easily 50 to 60% of all of our sales volume, but it’s changed now. And so now we have to do like all of it on our own. And if there was affiliates that could come in and drive a lot, that’d be great. But yeah, it’s changed a lot.

Eric Siu: (13:42):

When you say you’re doing all of it on your own right now, what does that entail? I see some of your Facebook ads, I think I see some YouTube ads too. What else?

Sam Ovens: (13:51):

Sure. So Facebook ads and YouTube ads, they’re the main drivers. So we have a media buyer who runs Facebook, a media buyer that runs YouTube. We also run Adwords, banner ads… But the two main channels would be Facebook and YouTube. We also have some organic search and we also have some referrals from customers within our program. But yeah, but the 80-20 of it is paid traffic through Facebook and Adwords.

Eric Siu: (14:18):

Yeah. So I encourage people… and it’s funny because Sam Ovens even runs these ads saying “Hey, look, if you’re going to try to funnel hack me, I’ve got it all for you here”. So if you want to look through his stuff, you can definitely look through it and just take a look at how he does things. But I can tell you that everything is buttoned up in terms of where you got into funnel, how he’s going to retarget you, the messaging and all that. So it’s very well thought through. I don’t think this is like oh look he’s doing so well, how come I can’t do the same thing? It’s more so like he said, he puts in the hours and he really thinks through things and he focuses. Okay so there’s people now that are writing books saying it doesn’t have to be crazy like, you know, Silicon Valley and all that. You don’t need to work long hours… it’s bad to work longer hours. Now you’re saying you actually put in long hours and that’s why you’re more successful. So what do you have to kind of say to those people?

Sam Ovens: (15:05):

Well, it depends what you want. If you really want to travel around the world and not have any employees and have like a lifestyle business, then you should do that. But if you want to build something really big or if you want to be the best, it requires everything. If you look at the best athletes of all time, the best CEOs of the most successful companies of all time. There was no work-life balance. Their sport or their business or their craft, whatever it was, it was given everything.

Eric Siu: (15:52):

And so for Sam, what does Sam ultimately want? What are you aiming for? Because now you’ve got this thing going, what do you see yourself doing Long-Term?

Sam Ovens: (16:02):

Yeah, I’m really interested in broader education. So I think one of the biggest problems in the world is our education system. I’ve been working on a niche within that larger whole, which is consulting and entrepreneurship and helping people start and grow consulting businesses. But my eyes are on the whole thing. So I want to revolutionize the world’s education system.

Eric Siu: (16:31):

When you first started, even before it was, before you got the domain. Correct me if I’m wrong, but you actually niched it down even more where you’re targeting agency owners, right?

Sam Ovens: (16:43):

Yeah well it’s gone through lots of iterations. My first version of my course was called Cashflow Consulting. The message was, if you have a SAAS business and you need money to grow it and fund it, then I’ll show you how to start a digital marketing consulting business in order to fund your SAAS business. So it was that niched.The only people who bought that were owners of SAAS businesses who wanted to fund it. And so it started off very niche like that and then I started to widen the net.

Eric Siu: (17:15):

What Sam’s talking about here is when you think about Apple, when they first started, they started with a Macintosh, very focused on the Macintosh, right. And nowadays I’m looking at my AirPods, the iPhone, they have the iPad, they have the watch as well. Now they’ve gone broader. So Sam started very niche first, and then he brought it up a little bit to and now he’s going to go even wider for the longterm because he’s got big aspirations, he’s got big goals. So I just wanted to kind of compare the two there. And I want to back up a second too, because you were trying to do your SAAS company…and I’m assuming it didn’t work out right?

Sam Ovens: (17:50):

No, it worked and it’s called Snap Inspect. If you Google it, it still exists today. Cool. And why I left it and focused on my course was just because I wasn’t really passionate about the property management industry. I chose it because I found a painful problem within there and I solved that problem.I just wasn’t extremely passionate about property management and what I was quite passionate about was education and helping entrepreneurs start businesses. So I just was drawn more to that. I ended up selling my shares in that company to a business partner who was my developer back then and he ended up buying all the shares off me and he still runs it and it still exists today.

Eric Siu: (18:38):

Good on that. So you had started this consultancy on the side, so what did you get your revenues to with you consultancy or your agency?

Sam Ovens: (18:47):

Yeah. So when I was doing done for you.. And by that I mean like actually building the funnels, building the ads, managing the ads and things, I could only get to about five or seven clients per month before it started to max out. So then I thought, okay, well this is easy, I’ll just hire more people and kind of build an agency. So I started to do that and found that it was quite hard because people need to be skilled. and managing humans is a complex thing. Then I found that there was massive diminishing returns. I couldn’t get an extra seven out of each new hire. I could manage seven on my own, but if I put another one in, it wasn’t like we could do 14. It was like we could do a bit more and then a bit more. There was a decay there. So I started to notice that and I was like, yeah, this isn’t going to make it, this won’t work. I think the max we got it to was like $180,000 New Zealand dollars a month, which might be around $110,000 US dollars a month.

Eric Siu: (19:47):

You realized at that point that you would do better teaching what you know already and then using the course itself, because it’s much more scalable the unit economics workout.

Sam Ovens: (19:57):

Yeah. Not only that but what was quite surprising was that people would get better results with the course compared to done for you because you teach them how to fix it themselves and then they take ownership for it. I think quite a lot of the time with done for you, people will just hand it off to someone and be like all right fix it. But it’s never just the marketing. It’s never just the funnel. If somebody has a problem it’s always very systemic and the problem will be everywhere in the business, down to the product, the support, the attitudes of the people that work within the company. That’s what I observed when I was doing agency work was that you kind of have to solve the whole thing if you want it to run really well.

Eric Siu: (20:41):

And did you decide with the agency to just shut it down or did you gradually shut it down as the Consulting courses were taking off?

Sam Ovens: (20:50):

I just didn’t add anything to it and with churn it just decayed.

Eric Siu: (20:57):

Got it. So what happened to the employees that were working with you?

Sam Ovens: (20:59):

So they all just found other jobs basically. And I told them this, and then that’s pretty much the time when I decided to move to America.

Eric Siu: (21:09):

And what was the reasoning for coming to America?

Sam Ovens: (21:11):

It was kind of like a fresh start and I knew that there’s so much more business over here than there is over there. And so I was like, all right, I’m going to focus on courses, I’m going to show people how to start and grow consulting businesses. That’s going to be it. That’s my focus. I know most of the action is in America, so I’m going to go there and focus on that. And that’s what I did.

Eric Siu: (21:29):

Got it. You know, it’s interesting looking at what you’ve done because the other people that try to duplicate your success, you are right, they’re doing a bunch of different things at once. It probably is just as simple as focus. Right. So was there, beyond kind of the business lessons that you’ve learned to just lock down, was there any other kind of point in time where it was like this is it I’m not going to try to do multiple things at once. Was there that one transformative moment?

Sam Ovens: (21:55):

If you study successful people in anything, you’ll quickly find the common thread. It’s obsession and focus and people change their entire life just so that they can give more to this thing.So if you study any successful people over any field over any era in time, that’s going to be the recurring pattern. And I noticed it made a huge difference in my business too. For example, an agency is a great example because you’re trying to focus on your own business and getting clients and running your ads and things, but you’re also trying to do that for all of these clients. It’s hard enough just to do it for yourself.When you really have that focus and you can just focus on one thing for long periods of time, that’s when it gets really good.

Sam Ovens: (22:43):

And whenever I felt just torn between different things, it just made my brain hurt. Like having to do all of this different social media stuff because I fell for that myth that to be successful, you need to go speak. So I was like looking at speaking at different things and you need to network and stuff, so I’d go out and meet people for lunch. Then I was thinking about writing a book and I had a blog and a YouTube channel and some Facebook stuff and I’d do some posts. It was just crazy. I was like, I don’t know how anyone does this. My brain hurts. I feel like I’m scatter of brain between everything and I’m not really doing any one thing well and it doesn’t make any sense. It’s kind of that myth that you need to be well-rounded, you know how you get told that at school? Yeah. One hundred percent. Yeah, I’m pretty spiky.

Eric Siu: (23:34):

It’s interesting because just judging by the way we talk in this interview and then the stuff that I’ve seen you do, it is 100% true. If you look at what Sam offers in his courses, his offering versus anybody else, it’s a lot more. There’s just a lot more to give. And the price, I I’d venture to say it’s fair. So going back to your course your introductory program is $2000, right. What other programs do you have and how much do those cost typically for people?

Sam Ovens: (24:02):

Sure. So the next one is called Uplevel consulting and that’s for people that are already in business. So accelerator is for people that are just getting started or trying to get up towards six figures, maybe they’ve already started and trying to get some traction. Then uplevel is a playbook for people that have maxed out the done for you or one-on-one business model. So that typically occurs around five to seven clients and they want to scale. And the best way to do that is by moving from the done-for-you and one-on-one business model to a training program. So that’s what we help people do in Uplevel, make that transition. Basically find the proof of concept that they’ve established through in done for you then make it into a training program that their clients can learn and apply without using them as the service delivery mechanism.

Eric Siu: (25:01):

Great. So we got two grand and then the Uplevel one you said was for?

Sam Ovens: (25:05):

That’s $5,800.

Eric Siu: (25:06):

Got it. Okay, cool. So these are the two programs within

Sam Ovens: (25:11):

And then I’ve got a mastermind group, which we don’t advertise or try and sell anywhere. It’s just naturally the best students that just want more. Like if someone comes through accelerator, does well, then they’re gonna buy uplevel. Then if they continue to do well they’re gonna be like, I want more. And that’s where we work with them on an ongoing basis in the mastermind.

Eric Siu: (25:31):

And what’s like the range for that?

Sam Ovens: (25:33):

It’s about $30,000

Eric Siu: (25:36):

That’s cool. So I’m assuming it’s like most other masterminds like War Room etc 30 grand for the year.

Sam Ovens: (25:42):

Yeah. It’s very different to those other masterminds in terms of how it’s structured and how we run it. But I guess the price is similar.

Eric Siu: (25:51):

We’re working towards wrapping up here. I mean, can you tell us one big struggle you faced while growing

Sam Ovens: (25:58):

One of them? There’s been a lot. So let me think of the biggest one. It’s probably hiring the team and making that transition from being a solo entrepreneur or an entrepreneur with 12 contractors running with you to actually having a team. That’s a very hard transition.

Eric Siu: (26:18):

Yeah it’s tough with contractors huh?

Sam Ovens: (26:21):

Well, the model just breaks at a certain point. Contractors are the best when you’re just running your business at the beginning because you don’t have to give them benefits or W2’s or payroll taxes or any of that. You don’t need an office. Then if you don’t have work for them, you don’t have to continue paying them. Right. And if you don’t need them in the future, it’s easy to just say, “okay I don’t need your services anymore.”

Sam Ovens: (26:49):

So contractors have a really good benefit at the early stages of running a business, but once you evolve and you’ve got a bunch of contractors, that’s where it starts to break down because you need a manager to manage these contractors. Basically because you have 12 nodes pointing through you as a centralized source, that gets unmanageable. And then they have siloed out. They don’t interconnect with each other. So there’s no bandwidth passing through between these different things, which means that the person running this has no visibility into how this other thing works and vice versa. Then you also have the problem of them not being fully committed to your thing because they have multiple clients.

Eric Siu: (27:32):

Right, it just sounds overwhelming.

Sam Ovens: (27:34):

It just gets to a point where it’s not efficient. For example, if you have someone running your Facebook ads for you and then your competitors find out who that person is, then they’re going to get that person to run their ads for them. And then every breakthrough you make is just going to be applied to your competitors. That’s kind of what happens with contractors. If you have an in-house, then that advantage doesn’t get passed along.

Eric Siu: (27:59):

Great. So, you’re a very focused, habits driven person. How do you generally structure a day and kind of what good habits have you cultivated in the last couple of years? So I know it’s a loaded question, so maybe I might separate it.

*Learn more about Sam Ovens and his Wife here.

Sam Ovens: (28:15):

What habits have been the most powerful… I mean, having a routine is. I know a lot of people are like “Oh, really a routine”… but almost nobody sticks to a routine. They’re well aware of the topic of a routine and it’s kind of an old, boring topic, but almost nobody does it. It’s just like health and fitness. Like how do you be healthy and fit and look good? Well, you just eat good food, you sleep well, you drink water and then you exercise, that’s it. It’s not complicated, but nobody does it. So then they think “Oh, it must be all of this other crap.” And so the answer is always very simple, but it’s the most painful one to actually admit to and actually do. So having a routine and sticking to it religiously every single day, despite how you feel, whether you’re motivated or unmotivated or sad or whatever, you just have to do it and you just have to stick to it.

Sam Ovens: (29:13):

And I mean every day, never, ever, ever slipping for years. And that’s what I mean by routine. Having one of those is very powerful. So waking up at the same time, going to bed at the same time, meditating in the morning is a very helpful habit for having a clear mind and then just blocking out distractions. So I turn my phone off and I put it in a drawer and then I don’t have anything on my computer popping up at me. I walk to my desk in the morning, start working and I don’t stop until the end of the day. and I just do that every day.

Eric Siu: (29:52):

How many hours do you think you’re working per day?

Sam Ovens: (29:55):

12 to 13, six days a week.

Eric Siu: (29:58):

What time do you typically wake up? What time do you go to bed at?

Sam Ovens: (30:00):

I wake up at 6:50 and I’m asleep by 11.

Eric Siu: (30:04):

There’s one big thing that I remember. So a couple of years ago I remember this company called bed jet reaching out and I was like what is this bed jet thing? Sounds stupid. Then I think I saw something you put out recently, not recently, maybe a couple of months ago, I clicked the link and I’m like, wow, okay this bed jet thing looks pretty legit. So I actually ended up getting one and for me it’s one of the best buys of the year where it just basically sprays like cool air under your sheets and keeps you cool. So what I’m leading towards right now is what is one new tool that you’ve added in the last year that’s added a lot of value aside from the bed jet?

Sam Ovens: (30:39):

Sure. Probably that Oura ring. O U R A ring. It’s just very simple. It just tracks when you go to sleep and when you wake up and what your heart rate and things alike while you’re asleep. It just provides some feedback and metrics to sleeping. For most people sleep is another one of those things where people are like “Oh yeah, I know I sleep properly. Or I go to bed at the same time. I get enough sleep” but they’re not really. Those are just canned responses the person is saying without actually truly being aware of it. And that Oura Ring brings the reality into awareness and quite often it’s shocking. The person thinks they’re getting enough sleep but it’s terrible. I’m not surprised that the person is anxious and making mistakes and worried about their business every day because their chemicals are just totally out of whack and they’re going to be delusional.

Eric Siu: (31:40):

I should quote that. So you got the Oura ring, you got the bed jet, what else? I hosted a dinner last week and one guy was like “I spent a couple of thousand dollars on my bedding, you know, a thousand threads and all that.” I’m waiting for him to send me like an email with all the bullet points. But I agree, I don’t think most people think about optimizing their sleep enough and that’s a weakness in my opinion. Now, final question for you. What is one must read book you’d recommend to everyone?

Sam Ovens: (32:09):

What would I recommend? I mean, with your audience, what is the main problem that they have?

Eric Siu: (32:14):

The question I think everyone here is trying to grow their business currently.

Sam Ovens: (32:18):

Well why can’t they?

Eric Siu: (32:18):

I think they’re all at different stages.

Sam Ovens: (32:21):

What’s the main problem?

Eric Siu: (32:23):

Well let’s go to my problem. When I listen to podcasts like this for example, I’m always looking for new ideas. I’m looking for ideas to grow my business. And there’s always good ideas I get from people around the web.

Sam Ovens: (32:36):

Sure. So I know that mode, we always feel like the answer is more information. It almost never is. So for example, with growing my business, I just found something that worked and then just did nothing but that for years and didn’t do any of the other ideas. So I think to get that habit, I’d recommend they read the book essentialism.

Eric Siu: (33:03):

Great. You know, people can find that book. Essentialism is a great book. I think it aligns very well with this episode that we’ve done, Sam, this has been really great, what’s the best way for people to find you online?

Sam Ovens: (33:17):

Just go to and that’s my website. And it says what we do and all of that.

Eric Siu: (33:23):

Wonderful Sam, thanks so much for doing this.

Sam Ovens: (33:25):

No problem. Thanks.